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Claire Stewart: Today's LBIdea is that all-women teams struggle against perceptions and penalties in the workplace. Companies and organizations should be aware of these so they can work to counteract them.

Our guest today is Mallory Decker, a doctoral candidate studying organizational behavior at the Leeds School of Business. Before joining Leeds, she served 11 years in the U.S. Navy as a helicopter pilot and completed military tours in the U.S. House of Representatives and with NATO. Her experiences sparked her research interest in the overlap of leadership, teams, decision-making, and gender and diversity.

Thanks so much for joining us today, Mallory.

Mallory Decker: Thank you, Claire, for having me. I'm excited to be here.

Stewart: Yeah. We'd love to learn a bit about you and share, kind of, your background with our audience. So, could you tell us about your background and your experience in the Navy?

Decker: Yeah, definitely. So, you summed it up very succinctly. I served in the Navy for 11 years on active duty. During that time, I served primarily as a helicopter pilot. I was stationed in San Diego, and I did one carrier deployment with a helicopter squadron in San Diego. After San Diego, I moved around several times to do different jobs.

I worked as a military legislative fellow in the House of Representatives, which was a really cool experience. I did some other staff work back in San Diego and then completed my time in the Navy working at NATO. There's a headquarters in Norfolk, Virginia, which was a really cool experience and really gave me a lot better understanding of how things work at the international level, and got to travel quite a bit.

So, it was a really cool experience. And then I got out of the Navy, applied to graduate schools, and got into ���Ҵ�ý�ƽ������, which was my top choice. So, I was really excited to move to Colorado to start the program.

Stewart: That is awesome. Well, we're so glad to have you and to have your wonderful experience. It sounds like you've done so many cool things, even before you got to here at Leeds, so we're excited to be chatting with you today about all the cool things you're doing now. So, how do you feel, like, your experiences in the military led you to want to study gender in the workforce?

Decker: Yeah, that's a good question because I don't have a very standard academic background, and even my time in the military is a little bit unstandard for the different types of things I got to do. I actually did a one-year master's degree program right after I graduated from college, studying international and European politics.

And after I completed that degree, I said, "That's it. I really am not... I don't want to go back to school. I'm not interested in doing a Ph.D. I can't imagine studying something for the rest of my life." Like, it would be so boring, is what I thought. And then I did all these really cool experiences in the Navy that I was so grateful for, and I had a very positive time overall.

But I did notice, kept coming back to these questions, in naval aviation is only about 7% women, so I was certainly a minority in the workplace and got to feel what that was like as a woman in a male-dominated workplace. Still had a very positive experience, loved the people I worked with. But by the time I got to NATO, I was sitting in all these meetings as just, kind of, an admin person in the background taking notes.

And at these very highest levels, I just... I was very often the only woman in the room where these large international decisions are being made. And it really struck me as being, man, I thought we'd come so far as women, and I just realized there were still so many structural issues in place that I didn't realize when I graduated college and was going off to enter the workforce.

So, over the course of these 11 years serving in the military, I realized, "Hey, these are issues that I am always interested in reading about. These are issues that I kind of have an opinion on based off my experience, and these are things that I really think could be improved and that I would be excited to try to help change."

And yes, I could see myself studying these things for the rest of my life. So, that inspired me to apply to organizational behavior programs and end up at ���Ҵ�ý�ƽ������, where the professors were doing the type of research I was interested in.

Stewart: Super cool. That is awesome. So, you know, I have to imagine that the transition from military into academia might be a little different, very unique to one another. But do you feel like there was any experiences that, kind of, set you up for success from the Navy into academia when you moved into your Ph.D. program, or was it a completely different change of pace, or how did that work for you?

Decker: It definitely is a very different change of pace. You know, it's a much... I have a lot more freedom and autonomy than I ever did in the military, which I really appreciate. It really suits my personality type. There are a lot of things, though, that I'm realizing as I've gone through this Ph.D. program that I really do rely on my military experience in ways that I wouldn't have predicted, maybe coming in, but have been really useful.

Especially being in a Ph.D. program that is... You do have a lot of unstructured time, a lot of time to develop your ideas and to work on things on your own. So, already having come into the program with, like, enforced and really well-taught self-management and time management skills was really important.

But then I also just came in having been in leadership positions within the military, so it made me a lot more comfortable coming in, taking the initiative, asking questions, and then moving into leadership roles within different academic research projects probably sooner than I would have if I had entered this program as a 23-year-old without that confidence or experience coming in.

Because the goal of the Ph.D. program is to develop researchers who will go off to good universities and lead research projects, and so I felt like I came in almost ready to do that. I just needed the knowledge that the program has given me so far. But I certainly felt like I had the project management, the communication, the delegation skills that you need to lead a research project to publication.

Stewart: That's great. So, moving into, kind of, what your research is about, we've seen some very cool articles on our team. We all were excited when we saw a lot of your articles that had, like you said, a lot of topics that a lot of women and a lot of people in the workforce right now are very interested in, and it affects a lot of people.

So, you published research this spring into gender pay gaps in all-men versus all-women teams. What did your research find about how all-women groups are perceived and penalized?

Decker: Yes. So, we found that when women work in exclusively all-women work groups, so teams of all women versus teams of all men, their pay is lower than... The gender pay gap gets worse. So, when men work with all men, their pay increases. When women work with all women, that pay gap gets bigger than if they just worked alone, and where their pay was taken into account just as a solo employee.

And we found, we tested through some online experiments, that this was because groups of women presented a threat to an existing status quo in male-dominated workplaces that solo women workers did not present, and that male workers either alone or in same groups did not present.

So, we found that when women work together, they present a threat of competition that they don't present when they work by themselves, and that led to lower pay.

Stewart: So, what, kind of, inspired that, and what were some of your biggest takeaways from that experience doing that research over multiple years?

Decker: Yeah, I came in, this is, kind of, a first-year Ph.D. project because I came in just with natural interest. Not even from the military. I'm a lifelong national women's soccer fan, and I followed very closely the 2019 World Cup and the fight for equal pay that the women's soccer team was going through, which was just like a year or so, year or two before, and was ongoing as I entered the Ph.D. program.

So, I was really interested in that, but what really struck me is that not only were these women succeeding at the top of their game and succeeding in a way that the men's national team was not, so not only do they have this massive pay gap, but in other sports, that pay gap has been eliminated.

And so, a lot of the arguments people were using to justify the existence of the soccer team pay gap, that has now been very much rectified to a degree, they weren't able to use in other sports because they had eliminated those pay gaps. So, it really stemmed from looking at sports and then working with my advisor, Dave Hekman.

We traced that to other industries. So, we realized, "Hey, it's not just happening in sports leagues. We see it in music, which some of our articles have pointed out. We found examples of it in healthcare. We found examples of it in venture capitalism." So, we realized that, "Hey, it's a bigger problem than just the women's soccer team and just these high-paid athletes are experiencing."

So, there might be something here that we should really look into, and Dave was really encouraging and pointed me in different directions to take the theorizing.

Stewart: That's awesome. So, you mentioned starting this research in your first year of the Ph.D. program and the changes that you saw between then and now. So, starting with the women's soccer team and then moving into, like, some more relevant figures that are very popular in, like, the current day conversations.

Do you see other industries, like, being impacted beyond the scope of this research, and has that, kind of, led you to look into any other research that have similar gaps?

Decker: Yeah. So, I think one thing... So, I came in interested in looking at why this is maybe happening in sports, and then we did see gains from the women's soccer team, where they, kind of, rectified it. But that did encourage us to look into other sports leagues, other types of sporting competitions, but then also outside of that in different industry. I was really, really surprised when I started looking into music and found that, "Hey, we have… women succeed in music, right? Taylor Swift, Beyoncé, huge. No one's arguing that they are not as well paid as they should be, perhaps."

But what was interesting then is when you look at the men, top-paid male musicians, yes, there's a lot of solo artists, but there's also a lot of group artists, and that pattern was not tracking to women.

So, all-women groups are not... Even the Spice Girls are not making these lists of top-paid musical acts in the same way that male solo artists and all-male bands were able to do. So, that was an example of music, and then we traced that. There's a lot of numbers that show, "Hey, all-women founding teams are earning only a small fraction of the investment in venture capital funding that all-male teams or mixed-gender funding teams are able to earn."

And people are aware of this and are trying to rectify it, but we ran the experiments and tried to do the research to help explain maybe one bit of the puzzle for why this gender gap persists and is compounded when women work together in all-women groups.

Stewart: Wow. That's super interesting, especially when a time when I feel like women are dominating a lot of the charts. It's such a crazy thing to hear. But yeah, it's really cool. So, I guess based on your research and, kind of, the organizational behavior side of it, what are some potential ways that you can see that companies and organizations can counteract the collaboration penalty for women?

Decker: Yeah, I think it all comes back to transparency and accountability and then just acknowledging, "Hey, these gender gaps are persisting, and so we need to do something about it." So, something our research finds, it's a little bit of a catch-22 for women, right? So, there's research that shows when women advocate for themselves or negotiate for higher salaries, there's a little bit of backlash, and people hold that against them.

And then our research shows they don't even have to advocate for themselves. They just have to work together, and people perceive them as being a threat to the existing status quo in these male-dominated workplaces. So, it's kind of a catch-22 for women on an individual level. You're, kind of, damned if you do, damned if you don't.

So, I do think the onus is on workplaces and organizations to evaluate their pay structures, to look at how they're compensating people, not just by gender on the individual level, but looking at their teams and their work group gender composition. Because I would argue especially for something like a cross-functional team, so maybe they analyze the data by department. Everyone within legal, same experience, is making the same. Everyone within marketing, we don't find a gender pay gap. But if you compile a cross-functional team with one person from marketing, one person from finance, one person from legal, maybe those compound the gender pay gap.

You don't find that within those individual departments, but when you're looking at the work group composition, especially of a cross-functional team, I would argue that's where I think you would potentially find evidence of this phenomenon that we documented, where working with more women leads to a compounded gender pay gap and worse pay outcomes for women.

Stewart: Wow. Very interesting. So, I understand that this specific research is part of your larger dissertation work. So, could you tell us how this fits into it and what the rest of that looks like?

Decker: Yes. So, I'm doing a three-paper dissertation as opposed to the classic one long tome, three individual research papers, and this is the first research paper in the dissertation, and it, kind of, sets the tone and the theme for the other two essays.

So, my overall dissertation looks at women's issues in the workplace and how, ultimately, how our relationships with other women impacts identity and outcomes. So, unfortunately, we found for this paper that working in all-women teams led to worse pay outcomes simply because of the perceived threat that women are going to try to advocate for change.

So, in the second paper, I look at, "Well, do women actually advocate for change, and how does that affect things?" Ultimately, finding that when women work with other women, it helps their identity. It helps them fight identity threats and overcome gender challenges within very male-dominated engineering environments.

And then my final essay looks at how menopause, a physical change, impacts women in leadership positions, and it in particular impacts their leadership identity with positive and negative outcomes depending on how much social support they're able to get from their workplace.

So, overall, overarching theme of the dissertation is gender issues in the workplace, but looking at how women can help each other and what are some of the positive and negative consequences of those relationships.

Stewart: Wow, that's super cool. We can't wait to hear your dissertation on that. That's awesome.

Decker: Thanks.

Stewart: So, looking forward into academia, and you've already done so much already, but are there any topics that you're excited about looking into and researching in the future career in academia?

Decker: Well, certainly I will probably always be drawn to gender issues, and I think that we’ll... We're human, and humans have gender, so I think that will always be a rich place for research ideas. But I am certainly more interested in just leadership issues in general and probably getting more into positive organizational scholarship, as opposed to... I really love the impact that doing research on gender pay gaps can have to try to change things, but it is a little bit of a downer.

You just keep talking about, man, there's all these issues. We still got to work to overcome them. So, ultimately, I would like to get more into here's good things that we can take, that we can study in the workplace that lead to more good things, and how do we continue to do that, especially in a time when people are unhappy and scared about the future and scared about the changes that we have coming in the workplace.

I would really like to focus more on how we can use human connection and positive workplace social supports to help people of any gender overcome workplace challenges.

Stewart: Very cool. So, as you prepare to graduate next year, congratulations, it's very soon. How do you look back on your Leeds experience, and are there any specific experiences or people that really shaped your experience here and made it really impactful?

Decker: Yeah, it's crazy how, one, that I only have a year left, but then also a Ph.D. program is long. I have been here for a long time. So, it's, kind of, crazy to look back on how much I've learned, how much more about academia and theory and research methods I know than when I came in as a first-year student those years ago.

Certainly, I've loved all the individual faculty within the OB department. I've been lucky enough to, I think, work with almost all of them in different ways and different types of projects. And so, they've all been hugely helpful, and I learned something different probably from each different faculty member, each of whom has their own individual area of expertise and working style and different types of experience.

So, that has been a pretty cool thing about the Leeds Ph.D. program within OB. And then, of course, I have to thank my advisor, Dave, for, one, encouraging me and latching onto this, kind of, half-baked research idea when I was a first-year student and had no idea how to do research, who really helped develop it into the paper. I wouldn't have published without him.

So, Dave Hekman, who is a professor within the OB department, has been hugely influential and helpful, and helpful in shepherding my dissertation as it comes to a close.

Stewart: That's great.

Decker: So, all the individual faculty members, with Dave in particular.

Stewart: Awesome. So, if you were to give any advice for someone that was wanting to pursue a Ph.D. and looking to begin their Ph.D. program, what advice would you give to them before they start that journey?

Decker: One, make sure you really want to do research because that's what you do.

Stewart: Yeah.

Decker: It does require a lot of self-motivation and initiative and drive and persistence to keep wanting to come back when you're getting negative feedback and told your paper isn't good enough for this journal, and you need to go rerun the experiment another 10 times before maybe it'll work or you'll find anything interesting.

So, it does take a lot of dusting yourself off and getting back up from it, and you have to really enjoy the process and not just the outcome if you're going to get into it. And then in terms of the specific Ph.D. programs, the advice I was given, and which I think is true, and what you would need to do for any program that you're applying to, look for where are the people doing the types of research and asking the types of questions you are most interested in.

Because maybe it's a good program and you can get into it, but if they're asking research questions that you just don't have any interest in, then it's not going to be as much fun, and you're not going to have the persistence you need to keep going.

Stewart: Absolutely. That's great. So, if people want to connect with you or learn more about your research, what's the best way they can get in touch with you?

Decker: Probably LinkedIn would be the easiest way to find me. Look me up on LinkedIn. But also, I think our bios, all the Ph.D. students have bios on the Leeds websites, which has my email, and I have certainly been contacted through that, so certainly look me up that way. I'm happy, always love to connect with people that are interested in research, who are interested in coming to Leeds, and happy to answer any questions anyone has.

Stewart: Awesome. Well, thank you again so much for your time today. Good luck with your dissertation and all the great things you're going to do in academia. We look forward to it.

Decker: Yeah. Thank you so much. I really appreciate your time.

Stewart: Thank you again for listening to Leeds Business Insights. Make sure you're one of the first to hear every episode by subscribing to the show wherever you get your podcasts. The Leeds Business Insights Podcast is a production of the Leeds School of Business and produced by University FM. We'll see you next time.